Move ak beginning to PA beginning? UPDATED

UPDATE April 22:

As of now the charcoals have it narrowly (4-3 including 3 who have read ak, and so whose votes carry a certain weight) but there's a paucity of comments explaining why.

Please, nay-voters, make your arguments! If it's just plain ol' conservatism, "I like it the way it is," that doesn't cut it. I'd never improve anything if I thought that way. But maybe you've got a point that I don't know or haven't thought of. I want to hear it!

Warning: below there be spoilers. I'll mark the section which you should not read if you don't want to find out the premise of ak yet.

I keep talking about revisions to the first chapters of PA and not doing them... partly because I have not been sure how. But at an hour at which I am usually asleep, I hit on the idea of taking the first part of asa kraiya and making it the first part of Philosopher in Arms, which essentially makes all of PA up to the beginning of ak a very lengthy flashback.

If you have read asa kraiya, I would like to ask you to vote on this. It would take some work, and would make a big change in the whole shape of the story, so please, please vote. In fact even if you haven't read ak, I'm interested in your vote, based on the considerations below. I've structured the poll to separate people who've read ak from people who haven't. I also welcome any and all comments. This is a big decision for me, very important, so I would really appreciate max input.

Why am I thinking of doing it?

I've been told by more than one person that the first chapters of PA have, to use the words of one reader, "barriers to entry," i.e. the capacity to drive readers away who might otherwise enjoy the rest of the work. (I got a version of this from a number of dead-tree readers also.)

Looking at the first chapters as objectively as I can manage, what I see is that they pile one grimness on top of another -- the death of Chevenga's father, his stream-test, the Kiss of the Lake, etc. -- possibly giving the false impression that the whole book will be nothing but grim. (I wrote the beginning that way, I realize now, because it more or less echoes the grimness of my own childhood -- not that I had the same traumas as my character, but I had equally nasty ones -- which works fine as catharsis for the writer, but isn't quite what a lot of readers want to immerse themselves in.)

Now what changing the beginning this way would do is, first, put something up front for which I've received huge praise, and which I know hooks in readers. Second, alter the tone of the beginning from grimness and fatalism to a very strong tension between hope and grimness/fatalism -- strong tension being, of course, the most reader-grabbing way to start a story. Third, it would make the story more layered still, which is something I always like.

This involves absolutely no changes to the story itself -- just the order in which it is told.

The downsides --

Spoiler warning in case I decide not to do this. N.B. there are big spoilers in the comments too!

...are, first, that I worry that knowing that early death is not certain for Chevenga at the beginning might take away some of the impact of his certainty about it. The attraction of fatalism is, of course, heroism in the face of it, and I don't want to lessen that.

Second, there is some spoilerage in the ak intro. I'd revise to remove as much of it as possible, but I can't see how I'd get all of it.

So please vote, and comment.

Note: I am going to make copious use of quotes from reviews and comments in my nascent ad campaign, since I have so many that make great sales pitches. For example:

Tell me this isn't brilliant.

Comments

My 2 copper links

I think the beginnings should stay the way they are. I read PiA in the dead tree form when it was originally published years ago. If I were to pick it up today, and read the first session with Surya as the first chapter . . . I'd probably put it back down.

It is pretty heavy, seeing all that Chevenga deals with as a child/young man, but it really makes it much easier to root for him as he figures out that what he makes out of his life is still up to him. It's that emotional investment that drew me into AK (that and *really* wanting to know how you'd save a character you killed off originally).

I don't mind finding webcomics and stories with a lot of "backlog," but then again, I read very very fast *and* have a job where I have an hour and a half per day where I can do pretty much what I want on the web when I'm not handling a customer call - and I usually only get maybe five calls. I also have an iPad, which I just realized is going to make getting through PiA on the web much more comfortable.

Thanks for your 2 copper links!

First: ooh, what a great job you have! I have another speed-reader (Valdary) who can read a 200-page novel in an hour and a half, so if you can match that, it's one novel per daily customer-call period. I bet many others of my readers are green with envy.

And cool about the iPad. I don't have one and don't know how they work but it's nice to know that people can access my site on them, since they're so trendy right now.

Hmm... root for him... root for him... those words I am going to keep in the back of my head as I do whatever I'm going to do.

Sorry I didn't answer sooner.

Another link or two?

Well, the job itself sucks, but since I started looking at my mandated daily phone time as a break instead of annoying, that's gotten better. I'm not sure I read as fast as Valdary, but I know that I can finish something like the dead-tree version of Lion's Heart in an evening, if I'm not interrupted too often.

E-readers and devices like the iPad are Godsends to me, since it means I can always have a book with me and not have to worry about running out of something to read.

I'm still learning how the iPad works and how I want to use it - most recently, I've discovered that the streaming function in conjunction with a Netflix account is a lifesaver, as I've been flat on my back in bed with a back injury.

But it's also more pleasurable to sit on the couch and page through PA instead of being stuck at my desk. Where I might only read two or three installments at my desk, I'll read five or six on the iPad.

And re: rooting for Chevenga - just as for characters in the book, I think most readers find that they like Chevenga almost from the start. So when thing after thing after thing starts happening to this very likable person, I think that draws the reader in and forms a bond between the reader and Chevenga that keeps the reader wanting to see how Chevenga "adapts, improvises and overcomes." I think the beginning of ak sort of depends on that relationship already being there to draw the reader back in.

And it's nice to get an answer at all!

Oof, back to the couch - my desk chair doesn't support my back the right way. Sad

Shel

GreenGlass weighs in...

for what it's worth. I guess I vote charcoal (and I haven't read ak) because I really hate the idea of it all being one big flashback. Blegh.

If you divide it up differently, or do a flashback from another point (a not so distant point, maybe?) I could feel easier about your decision and just say I'll trust your author expertise. As it is, I don't like it, but I'm not willing to read the beginning of ak to figure out why.

Hi GG, thanks for weighing in

One big flashback is not unprecedented. I can't think of one off the top of my head but I've read them. Not so frequent in the sff genre.

I had a revelation today (May 1) that's going to help, more about it in a blogpost.

Karen, how much of the

Karen, how much of the beginning of ak are you talking about for the beginning switch? Several chapters, or just this section:

"You think of me, I know, as having everything. My life is spun out of other people’s dreams.

At the start of that which changed it all, I was Imperator of Arko as well as semanakraseye of Yeola-e. I had command over more wealth than most could imagine; my name was known the world over, loved by allies, dreaded by enemies. I even had the simpler things: my health and strength, a good marriage, lovers outside it with no strife from within it, five perfect children, a more beautiful house in Vae Arahi than I could ever have imagined living in, and the love of as many friends as anyone could want. I could look back on my life and know I had prevailed in the face of the worst agonies and the greatest dangers; I could say honestly that I had done everything I had done well. What I was now doing – arranging to grant that empire back its independence, but with the vote now well enshrined in its laws and the citizens experienced in using it, the greatest defense against renewed tyranny – I could not help but take pride in. Who would not envy me for any part of it, let alone all?

But in my twenty-eighth year, when I would have thirty at the most, I would not have any of it much longer."

This would be "the mother of all spoilers"

Definitely a part to delete, big-time.

The plan (if I do it) is basically to do the first session he has with Surya, sans every spoiler I can get rid of. I wouldn't want even to let readers know he's Imperator... as you recall, that's not actually relevant to the first session, and Surya doesn't even know.

I realize one thing -- readers wouldn't be able to relate to Chevenga's own shock at finding out that his problem isn't at all what he thinks it is as well as if they'd read PA. Hmm...

I might have to rough out what I think the new beginning would look like to get a good enough picture of it myself. I also have to cogitate upon Michael's suggestion of a third-party foreword. Think, think think think...

The real dilemma

When I started reading PiA and reached its then last post, I thought to myself: "Why not not try ak and see how it goes?".
So I read a few chapters (I am an extremely fast but thorough reader, btw) and got the gist of it: Chevenga lives.
The reason I discontinued was because I like my 'books' in order, meaning that I enjoy the chronological order of events. (Unless the author writes in a mixed order, which has its advantages when an essential part of the story.)
I am also reading EC, without stopping at the current PiA time-frame, so I am well aware of all the events to follow here. I am able to make a distinction and keep my interest because for me God is in the details, and because I perceive the two as different stories with different voices and points of view.

So I can say this: Knowing the outcome did not spoil the Chevenga experience for me. It may have even enhanced it.

The real dilemma is how you wish to perceive (or let others perceive) your work: As one continuous body or as three (or more) separate volumes.
If as a single body, then please, go ahead and change the beginning. As V has pointed out, you cannot remain oblivious of the obvious.
But if you seek to partition Chevenga's life into different volumes, then I would rather have you leave the beginning (or change it in accordance with the new partitioning). People can then decide to start from the middle, as it were, without knowing the outcome in advance. (At least until they start reading the comments.)

Ultimately, I enjoy your storytelling too much to attempt to influence your work, as it then would no longer have your distinct 'voice' and 'accent'. I would rather read something you are happy with and feel happy with you than read your misery and perhaps lose interest.
(Meaning I would rather feel you are writing honestly and free than under constraint.)
So I vote not to vote on this poll, while still expressing my opinion on the matter.

Keep writing happy!!

Most eloquent abstention I've seen

Thank you!

One volume or sections... hmmm... I'll have to add that to the mix of considerations. Chevenga's story is one... but it has its phases, its natural divisions.

Not to worry, I won't write miserable. I know full well that misery on the part of the writer comes through loud and clear to the readers.

I only *wish* I had a better idea.

I agree with the sentiment that the reader must not know for certain that Chevenga's going to liiiiiive; it ruins much of the excitement I felt while reading. For the longest time I kept thinking, "okay, and next chapter will have the narrative taken over by somebody who found the unfinished manuscript in his personal effects, and . . ."

On the other hand, I agree that the opening of PA is a bummer wrapped in a buzzkill wrapped in the still-bloody skin of a puppy. If only the opening could be written in such a way as to replicate the feel of the asa kraiya opener but not spoil all the "fun."

Hmm.

You know, many autobiographies have forewords by famous contemporaries. Perhaps that angle could be swung to combine the best of both words? Have Kallijas or Azaila or Reknarja or somebody introduce the matter at hand in a way that hooks without spoiling? I don't know if it's even possible, but I feel it's worth considering.

-MSST

Hey! My next testimonial!

"...a bummer wrapped in a buzzkill wrapped in the still-bloody skin of a puppy." - MSST

"But... in a nice way! Really!" - Karen Wehrstein

Intro by contemporary that has the ak beginning effect? Gotta think about that one. I'm not sure it's possible either, but that hasn't stopped me from using some other ideas at other times.

Update: the obvious choice of foreword author, to my mind, would be Norii Maziel... hmm...

"O cruel critic, take thy beak from out mine heart!"

I really did mean it in a nice way. I'm big into the struggle against (or around) inevitability; I feel it's a large part of what makes us human. I loved the opening; it engaged me fully with sharp barbed hooks of sympathy and I couldn't rip myself off of it.

But, like you, I had similarly nasty formative years. Younger or less scarred audiences might be into a slightly less heavy trip. I'm not really in a position to judge.

-Michael S. S. Thedford

Me either, at least from a gut level.

Hence the poll.

Having said all that...

... the beginning of ak actually does not tell you he's going to live, for certain. It says only that he has a shot, that he's not looking at the certainty of early death.

Haven't read AK beginning (spoiler alert)

But it was abundantly clear before I'd read a dozen chapters that Chevenga had to survive, just from the way the FAQs, blog posts, intro posts, background posts, and a bunch of other sources answered questions like "Wait...didn't you kill him pretty dead?" "Well......"

Later, of course, the simple name provided some evidence. And then, silly me once clicked on the intro page which makes it boldly clear. Summary: I don't think you can hide that C survives from PiA readers, even if you want to.

I've also picked up that Yeola-e undertakes offensive war, Arko falls, and is ruled from offhand comments and directly through things like Kef and Ser on the Other Works page. I think the story is stronger when that's kept a secret for longer, but I don't know how realistic that is.

The goals you list in "Now what changing the beginning this way would do" are all significant and worth fundamental changes to incorporate. I have a bit of an attachment to the way *I've* experienced the story, but that certainly should not stand in the way of progress.

In the big picture (and a wall of text has been percolating on this one) I think the book model is not the most sustainable for weblit. Over time the size of your backlog hurts retention because you don't really want people to come in and slowly work through the backlog in their spare time--I think it's better from a community, engagement, and eventual donation standpoint to have them part of the active, commenting community around newer posts. Having lots of background material in book or archive form is great, but it shouldn't be a prerequisite. The whole 5th mil concept, and the idea of these other threads and stories on "Other Works" is a good move in that direction. Once PiA finishes up I'll be able to sweep through AK and the last chunk of EC.

In webcomics, I've seen Questionable Content and Something*Positive write in monolithic form, but they're both pretty light-hearted and you can start at many points to get a rough feel for what's going on, usually. Dominic Deegan or Goblins are good examples of comics which write in mostly self-contained arcs or chapters (that span a month or six of posting time) - midway between the "different works" and "monolithic".

V, thank you for all the thought

...that went into this comment, and I look forward to the 'wall of text'. Oddly enough, the "story so far" topic came up on twitter the other day and was explored further here, as a result of one reader saying they wanted to read my stuff but were discouraged by the backlog.

To me the best solution is packaging that pulls you into the first chapter -- and I am trying to leverage my testimonials for that -- then a first chapter that's such a grabber that the reader rejoices that there's another 500 chapters.

Re arcs, I can't stop Chevenga's story from being one story, but I can break it up into parts, which I've been kind of planning to do for a while for PDF/ebooks/POD purposes. His childhood/youth, up to the point where he becomes semanakraseye is one in my mind; his time in Arko the second; the Arkan war the next, and... it continues.

But I'm wondering... maybe I should break it up into even smaller parts? Childhood / teens (Lakan war) / Arko / healing on HM / gathering the allies / war / ...?

Another idea I have is, once it's complete, doing a second daily run-through with a much bigger advertising blitz to attract a bunch more readers. So you could read for free but only post by post, and you'd have that community commenting experience. If you wanted to get the whole book you'd have to pay for PDF or ebook or POD. Other writers have done well with this.

Putting up spoiler warnings on "other works". (Did something else instead.)

I welcome more opinions. Thanks again, V, for this comprehensive one.

Curses, foiled again

Well...maybe. The best way to avert a wall of text is to have a topic that already has a good cross-section of views and opinions. That's a good thread over on WFG.

In this reader's mind PiA breaks down into pre-Mezem, Mezem, and healing/war so far - I'm not sure dividing it further would allow more access, or allow people to skip parts. I think arcs work best when the author has in mind a number of shorter stories or episodes, not when they're frames of something more epic in scope--like C's life as a *major* historical mover and shaker. It may be a different kind of story more than a different kind of format.

Regarding a third version of PiA, or a second online posting...the concept sounds good but as a reader I already feel like the pace of PiA is constricting me -- I'm months back in Eclipse Court with no intention of trying to stay perfectly current with PiA time, and AK is a Pandora's box. Anyone frustrated with the PiA pace could pretty easily spoil it for themselves and then just wait for the rest of the story to post (hiyya Capriox!) Is there a way you might be able to do a repost with AK and get some of the same benefits? It would probably involve leaving PiA complete and "out there", which means people would still read it at a different rate--probably even a Cliff's Notes/summary version for most of them, if the advertising is steering them into AK. I'm not sure what to recommend.

To be fair, V, I think I

To be fair, V, I think I actually found asa kraiya first, and only after I'd started reading it did I discover PiA and EC.

I still would've read it alongside PiA, though. I'm the kind of person who flips to the last few pages in a book at the bookstore, to see if the story's going to be worth the investment (in time & money). Drives my family crazy, but doesn't bother me!

Oddly enough, that division

...is exactly what I had in mind in my late teens when I envisioned the story as a trilogy. Book I was going to be from C's pov, Book II (the Mezem) from Skorsas's, and Book III (healing/war) from Kaninjer's.

Example of how crappy self-esteem can screw up a writer's judgment: I gave up on doing it that way because one member of my writers' group, who was in a feud with me, said that Skorsas's pov sounded "Just like Chevenga, but dumber." I was crushed. I didn't have the emotional wherewithal back then to think, 'Umm... maybe this person has a bias against whatever I write right now?' I've gone back and retrieved the first Skorsas chapters from 5 1/4" floppy disks, and they're actually good.

More of a digression than I intended... your last graf, V, I didn't entirely understand. Though I gather it laments further the problems you run into when you write a sequel first. I would not recommend this. You think that when I get to the end of PA/beginning of ak I should re-run ak? And offer it complete, or in big hunks, for $ for those who are willing to pay to find out right now how it turns out? (Other authors have been successful with that approach.) Hmm.... as Pooh Bear says, "Think. Think think think..."

BTW I don't think you should be discouraged from producing your own wall of text by the WFG thread. Your viewpoint is another entirely, which I for one would be interested in seeing.

Oh man, leave that poll up

Oh man, leave that poll up for awhile. This is gonna take some thought on my part, too, and definitely I'll need time to re-read both beginnings.

I'm going to do the usual:

...leave it up until people quit voting on it, unless the votes go so overwhelmingly one way or the other that it's obvious that further votes won't much change it. So, you've got time.

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